BROWN AGAINST IRAN - IN ISRAEL

ZAKARIA TRANSCRIPT OF DAN GILLERMAN, SAEB EREKAT INTERVIEW ON CNN SUN JULY 20,08

ZAKARIA: This week, Senator Barack Obama heads to the Middle East, to the front lines of one of the longest-running conflicts in the world. He will be visiting Israel and also the West Bank.

John McCain was recently in Israel, in March, though he did not go to the West Bank.

So, what are the Israeli and Palestinian leadership looking for from the next president?

Joining me now to discuss this and some other issues are the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Daniel Gillerman, and from Washington, the chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erakat.

Welcome, gentlemen.

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: Thank you.

DAN GILLERMAN, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Thank you. It's good to be here, Fareed.

ZAKARIA: Dan, let me ask you about something relating to Iran.

So, I've been watching Israel's recent moves. You've had a prisoner exchange with Hezbollah, which was quite unusual for Israel, in that you agreed to give up, really, a rather heinous killer, in a way that usually you do not, to Hezbollah. You're negotiating with Hamas. You're negotiating with the Syrians. You're having negotiations with the Egyptians.

Now, if I were a somewhat cynical man, I would say there seems to be some kind of clearing of the decks and conversations with all the key Arab players, perhaps to prepare the ground for a potential strike against Iran.

Would that be a reasonable interpretation of these diplomatic moves?

GILLERMAN: Well, they are diplomatic moves. And as someone who is still Israel's ambassador to the U.N., I believe very much in diplomacy, and I believe diplomacy should take its course.

But I also believe, as I said before, that Iran poses the major threat, not just to Israel -- and that has to be understood -- Iran is the major threat to world safety and security, to the survival of civilization as we know it. And to a great...

ZAKARIA: But if you feel that way, sure, then you're saying a military strike would be -- I mean, you're casting it in pretty dire terms. Would a military strike be appropriate in the next few months? GILLERMAN: I would very much hope that diplomacy takes its course. I would very much hope that the sanctions, the economic pressure, the international pressure will actually work.

I believe that they could, because I don't think Iran is indifferent to it.

But we must understand that, while comparing sometimes North Korea and Iran, there's a huge difference there, because North Korea attained nuclear weapons out of desperation. Iran is seeking them out of aspiration.

Those aspirations worry the moderate Muslim and Arab world, just as they worry us. They worry the international community, just as they worry us.

And therefore, I believe that Iran must be made to understand that the world, the international community, will not allow this regime that denies the Holocaust while preparing the next one, that threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the map, that is a threat to the world, to achieve nuclear weapons.

And if diplomacy fails, it must be made to understand that all other options are on the table.

ZAKARIA: Saeb, what would an Israeli strike on Iran do to the peace process?

ERAKAT: It would destroy it. It would destroy it.

And I really encourage and support the Israeli move towards reviving the negotiations with the Syrians. I believe dialogue and diplomacy are the language that should be used in this region.

I believe military solutions have proved all the time that they would just add to the complexities and give rise to extremism in the region.

But I believe, if somebody's thinking about using force against Iran they will solve problems, I think it will be just breaking hell loose and it will be disastrous, as did all other wars in this region.

ZAKARIA: You have in the Palestinian community your own extremists. You have Hamas ruling Gaza.

Do you believe they are now less popular? Have they been marginalized? Or has the isolation that the European Union and the United States imposed on them, has that made them stronger?

ERAKAT: Well, Fareed, let me say two things. One, democracy did not fail in the Palestinian society. Hamas is a Palestinian party. Hamas won the elections.

I remember the day Mr. Haniya came to our parliament to seek a vote of confidence. I told him, Today, you are the prime minister of all Palestinians, not the prime minister of Hamas. Please, you have to accept, like Khomeini did, like Mandela did, all the obligations of the Palestinian Authority, the two state solution, avoid violence, accept the Roadmap.

Unfortunately, they chose not to, and that's where the failure was.

ZAKARIA: A quick thought on Hamas?

GILLERMAN: Well, I think Hamas is...

ZAKARIA: Is it weaker today, or is it stronger today? Because there's lots of evidence that suggests that the isolation has made them some -- there's kind of a martyr complex surrounding them now.

GILLERMAN: I really have no way of judging whether they are weaker or closer -- or stronger.

What I can say -- and even if Saeb cannot say it, I'm sure he shares my thoughts -- is that Hamas is, indeed, one of the greatest tragedies that happened to the Palestinian people. They were dealt a very raw deal.

I believe, I honestly believe, that most Palestinians want peace. I believe that no baby is born wanting to be a suicide bomber. I believe that no mother ever gives birth to a baby, wanting him one day to blow himself up.

The fact that a part of the Palestinian territory is today ruled by a terror organization, which shows to make Gaza, rather than a paradise for its people -- I mean, you know, when we left Gaza over two years ago, every single inch of Gaza nearly three years ago, the Palestinians had two choices. One, to make it into a place where they look after the welfare and the wellbeing and the quality of life and the standard of living of their people, or to turn it into a terror base and a launching pad for missiles against Israel.

Sadly, they once again -- as my most illustrious predecessor at the U.N. used to say -- never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. That was a golden opportunity.

They could have shown the world, Here we are. The Israelis left. We are left to govern our own lives and decide our own destiny. We know how to do it. We care for our people. We will make Gaza prosperous and thriving and a model for what can be in a Palestinian state.

Instead of that, they turned it into a terror base.

So, I think Hamas is a tragedy, not just for Israel and not just for the Palestinians, but for the whole region.

ZAKARIA: And we will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAKARIA: And we are back. Let me ask you both about one particular aspect of the final status negotiations.

The Clinton plan talked about a divided Jerusalem between the Arab section, which would be the capital of the Palestinian state, and the Jewish section, which would be the capital of Israel.

The presidential candidate, the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate, Barack Obama, spoke to AIPAC -- the American- Israel Public Affairs Committee -- and he said he supported an undivided Jerusalem.

But I asked him on this program last week what he meant and to clarify that. And listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA, D-ILLINOIS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The truth is that this was an example where we had some poor phrasing in the speech. And we immediately tried to correct the interpretation that was given.

The point we were simply making was, is that we don't want barbed wire running through Jerusalem, similar to the way it was prior to the '67 war, that it is possible for us to create a Jerusalem that is cohesive and coherent.

I was not trying to predetermine what are essentially final status issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZAKARIA: Dan, did Obama change his mind?

GILLERMAN: Well, I was there when Barack Obama made that very impressive speech. I heard that very clearly. I also heard his explanation.

I know Jerusalem, in the minds of many, is a very delicate subject. And it is, indeed, a city which means so much to so many people and to so many religions, and has to be dealt with wisely, delicately, cautiously.

But I do believe that Jerusalem -- that we can find a way of making Jerusalem a city which will cater to the wishes, to the aspirations, to the beliefs of all people -- Palestinians and Israelis -- and all religions, as it is today.

ZAKARIA: Saeb, do you think that a President Obama could bring something to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process that has been missing so far?

ERAKAT: Well, on what he said on Jerusalem, Fareed, I agree with him. I think it's us an the Israelis who will decide. I believe there will be Jerusalem as the capital of the two states. There will be an East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, Al-Quds; West Jerusalem, Yerushalayim, capital of Israel.

And I believe that Mr. Obama -- I really would think that he wants us to reach an agreement before he's inaugurated, if he wins the presidency. So does Mr. McCain.

I really believe that Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain wants Palestinians and Israelis to reach the agreement before January 9, 2009. This is the truth. And I hope that we can do it.

The question today is not about what this president's position is, and what that president's position is. Today, the world is not divided between those who are pro-Israel and those who are pro- Palestinian. The world is divided between those who are pro-peace and those who are against peace.

And those who are pro-peace, they know it's going to be a two state solution with East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, with West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, whereby then we can talk about the modalities (ph) of having an open city, free movement, the coherence of the city, the uniqueness of the city, to all.

And I believe that we can do it. And we must do it before the next president of the United States is inaugurated, whether it's Mr. Obama or Mr. McCain.

ZAKARIA: I mean, I feel as though we could have had this conversation two years ago, or perhaps 20 years ago.

What's different now? Why is it possible? Why is Saeb Erakat seeming more optimistic?

ERAKAT: Because Saeb Erakat...

GILLERMAN: First of all...

ZAKARIA: All right. Why don't you go first, Saeb, because that was a question to you. And then we'll let Dan get in.

ERAKAT: Because Saeb Erakat, like all Palestinians, does realize that it's his need and interest. I did not wake up one morning, Fareed, and feel my conscience aching for the Israelis. And they did not wake up one morning and feel their conscience aching for my suffering.

We both do realize now that we need peace.

ZAKARIA: Are you optimistic?

GILLERMAN: I agree with Saeb. There's only one reality. It's a two state solution. It's a two state solution which will finally bring peace and security to our area, make our two peoples live side by side in peace and security, and assure that Israel is the solution for the Jewish people, just as Palestine is the solution for the Jewish refugees -- for the Palestinian refugees.

ZAKARIA: On that note, thank you, Saeb Erakat, Dan Gillerman. A real pleasure to have you both on.

ERAKAT: Thank you.

GILLERMAN: Thank you very much. And just maybe one last word.

Saeb mentioned at the beginning that he was a father. I believe he also became a grandfather just two weeks ago. I hope we won't have to wait for his granddaughter to grow up until we see peace, and that his children and my children will enjoy it very soon.

ERAKAT: Thank you, Dan.

ZAKARIA: On that happy note, thank you both.

We'll be back.

British PM's Knesset stand against abhorrent Ahmadinejad by Robin Millard Sun Jul 20, 7:18 PM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - British Prime Minister Gordon Brown was to attack the Iranian president's abhorrent threats towards Israel and threaten further sanctions on Tehran in a key speech to the Knesset on Monday. In the first address to the Israeli parliament by a British premier, Brown was to spell out that Britain stood alongside Israel when in danger and ratchet up the pressure on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over Iran's disputed nuclear programme.Brown was to warn Tehran it faced growing isolation and a collective international response if it did not comply with UN demands over its uranium enrichment activities -- which Israel fears will be used for a nuclear weapon.Sanctions could be slapped on the oil and gas sectors to hit the domestic Iranian market.To those who question Israel's very right to exist, and threaten the lives of its citizens through terror, we say: the people of Israel have a right to live here, to live freely and to live in security, Brown was to say, according to excerpts released in advance.And to those who believe that threatening statements fall upon indifferent ears, we say in one voice that it is totally abhorrent for the president of Iran to call for Israel to be wiped from the map of the world.

The stand was to come the day after Brown visited Yad Vashem, Israel's memorial to the six million Jews murdered in the Nazi Holocaust.I promise that just as we have led the work on three mandatory sanctions resolutions of the UN, the UK will continue to lead -- with the United States and our European Union partners -- in our determination to prevent an Iranian nuclear weapons programme, Brown was to say.The EU has gone beyond each of these resolutions. Last month we took action against an Iranian bank involved in proliferation.And Iran now has a clear choice to make: suspend its nuclear programme and accept our offer of negotiations or face growing isolation and the collective response not of one nation but of many nations.The prime minister's spokesman said Brown did not rule out extended sanctions in some form on the oil and gas sector.Sources said that could involve sanctions on the constant flow of spare parts for Tehran's fairly limited domestic oil refining capacity, to have an impact within Iran.Brown's spokesman said: We should rule nothing out at this point, as he has always made clear, but our focus at the moment is on strengthening the sanctions regime to keep up the pressure on Iran.In his speech, Brown was to praise Israel's achievements in the 60 years since the state's creation.To have achieved all this in the face of the war, the terror, the violence, the threats, the intimidation and the security is truly monumental, he was to say.Britain and Israel continue to stand together in believing that history sides with those who fight for liberty -- and if the great conflict of ideas of the 21st century is between those who believe in closed societies who would turn back the clock of progress and those who believe in open societies, then we are together on the side of openness.Let me tell the people of Israel today: Britain is your true friend.

A friend in difficult times as well as in good times, a friend who will stand beside you whenever your peace, your stability and your existence are under threat; a friend who shares an unbreakable partnership based on shared values of liberty, democracy and justice. And I am proud to say for the whole of my life, I have counted myself a friend of your country.Brown was making his first visit to Israel and the West Bank since becoming prime minister last June. His trip is focused on giving momentum to the Middle East peace process and boosting investment in the Palestinian territories to kick-start the economy there.

Middle East deal doable, says British PM by Robin Millard
Sun Jul 20, 3:59 PM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - British Prime Minister Gordon Brown insisted Sunday that the gap between Israel and the Palestinians can be bridged and that a landmark Middle East peace deal is achieveable.

After talks in Jerusalem and Bethlehem with leaders from both sides, Brown said he was confident that all outstanding issues preventing an agreement could be hammered out.Brown clashed with his Israeli counterpart Ehud Olmert over his demand to freeze the building of settlements in the West Bank and pledged new aid to the Palestinians as part of efforts to kick-start their economy .Brown was making his first visit to Israel and the West Bank since becoming premier in June last year.US-sponsored talks between the two sides are aimed at resolving the conflict before US President George W. Bush leaves office next January.However, the talks have become bogged down amid violence in the Islamist Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip and the expansion of Jewish settlements.Asked by AFP whether he was confident that a deal could be reached on schedule, Brown said: When I say the difficulties can be bridged, that the problems that I have had described to me I believe can be solved, then I think there is an opportunity within our grasp.There is a sense from what I have heard today that people feel that they can get to a solution. The sooner that happens, the better. I'm urging people to move forward with as great speed as possible.He told reporters that stakeholders should not lose sight of the big prize of a comprehensive settlement.What separates the sides is not unbridgeable. My own view is that there is good will to move these things forward.My advice is to concentrate on the main elements of a final peace agreement but...all the central issues that are preventing a resolution of the whole Israeli-Palestinian issue will have to be sorted out.Brown crossed Israel's separation barrier for talks in the West Bank town of Bethlehem with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas and prime minister Salam Fayyad.We have pledged 500 million dollars for economic development in Palestine over three years to 2011, Brown said after meeting Abbas.I can announce today a further commitment of 60 million dollars, Brown said, bringing total British aid in 2008 to 175 million dollars.

Abbas thanked Brown for his support as the Scot called on Israel to lift checkpoints in the West Bank and halt the growth of Jewish settlements.Brown said their expansion had made peace harder to achieve.Settlement expansion erodes trust, it heightens Palestinian suffering, it makes the compromises Israel will need to make for peace more difficult, Brown said, adding that there must also be a halt to violence on both sides.Olmert admitted Brown had criticised Israel's settlement policy to his face. I tried to explain to you the restraint which we put on ourselves on the one hand and the need to keep the pace of life going on the other, he said. While you disagree with us, I hope you understand better the position of Israel.In keeping with his economic roadmap to peace, Brown pledged support for a new mortgage finance authority which he said would help to finance some 30,000 new Palestinian homes and generate up to 50,000 new jobs. Brown called for increased international investment in the territories, saying Palestine is open for business.He and former World Bank economist Fayyad hosted a meeting of top British and Palestinian business leaders to boost investment in Gaza and the West Bank. Prosperity would make the cost of ever returning to violence so high and so unacceptable that the vast majority will not want to have anything to do with those who preach violence, Brown said.

Fayyad who said the Palestinian economy had been ravaged for many, many years and was performing way below potential, blaming the Israeli military crackdown that followed the 2000 Palestinian uprising. Brown has been invited to address the Israeli parliament on Monday -- the first time a British premier will make a speech to the Knesset.

Brown due for talks in Israel, West Bank by Robin Millard
Sun Jul 20, 12:18 AM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - Gordon Brown prepared for talks on Sunday during his first visit to Israel and the West Bank since becoming prime minister in a bid to bolster peace negotiations and economic development. Brown was to meet Israeli and Palestinian leaders in an attempt to revitalise the sluggish peace process between the two sides and push his economic roadmap to peace via giving Palestinians a financial stake in the territories' future.He has been invited to address the Israeli parliament on Monday -- the first time a British prime minister will have spoken to the Knesset.

Brown flew in to Tel Aviv late Saturday on a previously unannounced visit, having made a surprise trip to Baghdad and Basra in southern Iraq earlier in the day.Brown was due to speak to Israel's President Shimon Peres and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, plus their Palestinian counterparts Mahmud Abbas and Salam Fayyad on Sunday to discuss the way forward on the peace process and economic reconstruction and development, the premier's spokesman Michael Ellam told reporters.On Monday he will become the first British prime minister to address the Israeli parliament, he added.Brown will also meet with senior Israeli ministers and opposition figures during his trip.Brown -- who spent 10 years as finance minister under Tony Blair, whom he succeeded as premier in June 2007 -- is keen to discuss boosting growth in the Palestinian Territories and financial incentives for stamping out militants.Last September, he set out an economic roadmap for peace in the Middle East, in which he said it was his strong personal belief that kick-starting growth in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip was crucial to establishing peace.By giving ordinary Palestinians an economic stake in their future, we support the forces of peace and moderation, he said.

The report identified five building blocks: reducing public expenditure, a more stable relationship between the Palestinian and Israeli economies, a balance between short-term security and movement and access, diversification of trade links, and an enhanced investment climate.Britain has already pledged to provide almost 500 million dollars (315 million euros) to help build the Palestinian economy and Brown may pledge more during his trip.His predecessor Blair is now the Middle East Quartet's envoy, representing the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States in efforts to advance peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.The two -- whose relationship soured over the years -- will not meet during the visit.Brown reiterated last month that he saw the main issue preventing greater stability in the wider Middle East as being the lack of a deal giving Israel security and the Palestinians a viable state.The US-sponsored talks between the two sides in Annapolis, Maryland in late November 2007, were aimed at resolving the conflict before US President George W. Bush leaves office next January.However, no concrete progress has yet been announced, and outside Israel, many fear that Olmert's deepening political troubles in corruption probes could scupper the slow-moving peace talks.

Brown will be keen to find out what progress the two sides will be able to make towards achieving a landmark settlement. Brown and Olmert met in London on October 23, when the 57-year-old Scot backed his counterpart's push for tougher sanctions against Iran over its disputed nuclear programme. Last week he reiterated his distaste and outrage at Iranian threats towards Israel. He is expected to hammer out a tough line on Tehran while in Jerusalem.

Abbas, who held talks with Brown in London last December, praised Britain's funding pledge, saying the British premier played a pivotal role in the region and his personal involvement was a source of power for Palestinians.

Israeli PM vows to recover captured soldier in Gaza Sun Jul 20, 4:57AM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert vowed on Sunday to bring back a soldier captured by Gaza militants more than two years ago, following a prisoner exchange with the Lebanese Hezbollah militia. We've promised the Shalit family in our name to do everything to bring Gilad Shalit home alive and in good health as quickly as possible. Let me tell you it is not easy, Olmert told a weekly cabinet meeting.I believe Gilad Shalit will return home safe and sound. We will not rest and not stop until we get him back, he added.The Islamist Hamas movement has demanded the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for Shalit, who was captured in a deadly cross-border raid by Gaza militants in June 2006.Shalit's captors have over the past two years released several letters written by the 21-year-old corporal in captivity, where he said his health was deteriorating.On Wednesday, Israel handed over five Lebanese prisoners to Hezbollah in exchange for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers captured in a similar raid that sparked the 34-day Lebanon war in July 2006.The two soldiers' fate was unknown until they appeared at the border in two black coffins, and the prisoner exchange was widely criticised in Israel because it included the release of Samir Kuntar, convicted of the 1979 murder of three civilians, including a little girl.A senior Israeli government official said Olmert will hold a series of talks with Defence Minister Ehud Barak and other senior security officials to discuss the negotiations for Shalit's release.

Last update - 14:34 14/07/2008 Ahead of Mideast trip, Obama backtracks on undivided Jerusalem By Reuters, The Associated Press

Barack Obama will visit Israel and the West Bank next week, Israeli and Palestinian officials said Monday. The announcement came a day after the Democratic presidential hopeful sought to downplay his recent remarks on the contentious issue of dividing Jerusalem.

Obama will be in Israel on July 22 and 23 and hold talks with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, President Shimon Peres and opposition leader Benjamin Netanyahu, an Israeli official said. Palestinian peace negotiator Saeb Erekat said Obama would also meet President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank city of Ramallah next Wednesday. The Palestinians welcome this meeting, said Erekat. He also said that if Obama is elected U.S. president, the Palestinians hope he will stay the course between Israel and the Palestinians in reaching peace. Obama's Republican opponent, John McCain, visited Israel last March but did not meet with the Palestinians. Obama had been widely expected to visit the Middle East this summer. He has faced wariness among some Jewish voters over his commitment to Israel, fuelled by suspicion over comments indicating willingness to talk to Iranian leaders. Obama said on Sunday he used poor phrasing in a speech supporting Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. You know, the truth is that this was an example where we had some poor phrasing in the speech. And we immediately tried to correct the interpretation that was given, he said in an interview aired Sunday on CNN's Fareed Zakaria - GPS.The point we were simply making was, is that we don't want barbed wire running through Jerusalem, similar to the way it was prior to the 67 war, that it is possible for us to create a Jerusalem that is cohesive and coherent, Obama said. Obama's campaign has issued similar clarifications since the candidate's speech to pro-Israel lobby group after he clinched the Democratic presidential nomination early last month. In the speech, Obama told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee that if elected president in November, he would work for peace with a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided, the Illinois senator said. Palestinian leaders reacted with anger and dismay.

Israel calls the city its undivided and eternal capital, but this status has never been recognized internationally. Palestinians want East Jerusalem, captured by Israel in 1967, for a future capital.

The U.S. Congress passed a law in 1995 describing Jerusalem as capital of Israel and saying it should not be divided, but successive presidents have used their foreign policy powers to maintain the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and to back negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on the status of Jerusalem.